澳洲总理与习近平共进午餐谈了什么？丨ABC中文
在回程途中的一次采访中，您提到了与习近平的午餐，您说那次午餐非常私人。您能解释一下您这番话的意思吗？ 您说我们进行了一个多小时的私人谈话。
我们提出了一系列问题，因为那是私人谈话。我不想细说。呃，那次谈话不像我们作为中国国家主席和澳大利亚总理在正式双边会晤时那样，讨论国家事务。那次谈话更多的是个人问题，我们的历史。
您了解到他的历史和背景吗？我了解到不少，但这些都属于私人话题。我认为他是一个非常注重隐私的人，能够进行这样的谈话非常重要。但为了了解人们的出身，你必须了解他们的背景，也必须了解他们对个人事务的一些看法，我觉得我们彼此更加了解了。
你说那些都是玩笑。那些玩笑是关于什么的？那些玩笑涉及各种各样的事情。呃，不过我再说一次，我会保密。但他展现了真正的幽默感，我们之间的谈话非常温馨。他当然访问过澳大利亚所有六个州和领地。现在大多数澳大利亚人还没有这样做过。
他知道自己在说什么。只是谈到他的出身和背景。我相信你知道他父亲在共产党的最后一个角色。他的任务是监督台湾的统一。你谈过这个吗？
没有。没有提到台湾。
没有。我们并没有谈论太多重要的政策问题。但那是关于他父亲的，这对他来说非常重要。哦，这对他来说无疑很重要，而且他对台湾问题表达了清晰的看法，澳大利亚也一样。嗯，在台海问题上，我们支持维持现状。
您刚才说这次交流有点不寻常。你们一起度过了一段时光。你们进行了这些私人交流。您说这次交流是建立信任的时刻。您认为这种信任值多少钱？嗯，它的价值在于不要在节目中谈论个人问题。这体现了双方的某种程度的互动和个人关系的建立。这与在这栋楼里或在工党会议上建立个人关系，进行国际交流没有什么不同。
您让我进来，是因为在这栋楼里建立关系和与中国国家主席建立关系是不同的。当然，但同样的原则也适用，那就是坦率地明确你的观点，明确哪些方面你能达成一致，哪些方面你不能达成一致，这就是我们关系的本质。我说过，我们会在可以合作、必须达成一致的地方合作，但我们会为了国家利益而合作，而这正是我们一直在做的事情。请允许我回到信任的问题上，因为我确实认为你用了一个不寻常的词，我确实想知道你认为这个词是什么意思。除了与他关系略有发展之外，例如，如果台湾爆发危机，他会接你的电话吗？以阻止他入侵或封锁台湾？
你看，这只是一个假设，我就不深入探讨了。呃，但我之前说过，他对我说的任何话，呃，都已经履行了。呃，他没有违背任何对我的个人承诺。这并不意味着他同意我提出的所有建议。远非如此。但我宁愿这样，也不愿看到有人在国际层面上说：“是的，我们可以做到。”然后又反其道而行之。
所以你相信他说了什么就会信守诺言？我没有理由指出迄今为止发生的任何违约行为。这都是关于过去的事。那么未来呢？
嗯，我只能谈论过去，因为我只能谈论事实，而不是展望未来。我们不知道会发生什么。我们知道存在重大差异。中国和澳大利亚有不同的政治体制。我们有不同的价值观。我们与美国结盟，这非常重要。我们是一个民主国家，明天将是这种民主的体现。
在进入明天之前，我想谈谈美国人将如何关注发生的事情。嗯，你有没有让你们的大使陆克文向白宫解释，为什么你花了这么多时间与习近平主席会面，却没有与唐纳德·特朗普见面？他一直在这样做吗？没有，我确信陆克文一直在以正常的方式与美国接触。但他需要解释吗？我本来不这么认为。我本来会的。
我认为澳大利亚与我们的主要贸易伙伴进行接触是非常明智的。这关乎澳大利亚的就业。
但正如您所描述的那样，我们之间充满信任，通过这次长时间的会谈、交流和个人交往，我们之间确实在进行接触，而且我与美国之间也进行了建设性的接触，就像我长期以来与美国进行的接触一样。自从我担任总理以来，我访问了美国五次，其中两次访问了中国。中国是我们的主要贸易伙伴。澳大利亚四分之一的就业岗位依赖于贸易，而中国的出口额更大，我们对中国的出口额超过了紧随其后的四个国家的总和。
您现在正在为与特朗普总统会面做出哪些新的努力？我们正在进行接触。我可以参加一次会谈。当然，从现在到年底，我们还会举办一系列国际论坛。亚太经合组织会议、二十国集团会议、四方领导人会议，以及将于9月举行的联合国会议。
您是否听到白宫或五角大楼有任何担忧，认为习近平主席正在利用您的访问，挑拨盟友关系？
没有。
关于此次访问的性质，没有人提出任何疑问。
没有，我没有。我已经跟凯文·罗德大使沟通过了。
没有。
如果这次与唐纳德·特朗普的会面真的发生，如果他坚持提出那些我们理解的国防部副部长埃尔布里奇·科尔比提出的要求，您会怎么说？让我先解释一下这是什么。所以，这些报告……一份关于一系列会议的报告，这些会议没有被否认。一份关于美国、日本和澳大利亚国防官员之间一系列会议的报告，这些会议希望更清楚地了解，如果美国和中国因台湾开战，澳大利亚将扮演什么角色，这份报告也没有被否认。如果有人追问这个问题，您会怎么说？
我想说的是，长期以来，澳大利亚总理在两党基础上都说过的话。
我们是一个主权国家。我们会根据当天的情况做出决定，而这些决定最终由当届政府做出。但考虑到8月份的形势，以及我们理论上应该接收弗吉尼亚级潜艇的事实，你明白吗？
你认为埃尔布里奇·科尔比向澳大利亚提出的这个问题合理吗？他应该更清楚地说明，如果发生冲突，澳大利亚会怎么做。
他向我提出了这个建议，但他已经向贵国官员表达过了。嗯，他有报道，有报道，而且有很多报道。
我们不会做的一件事就是每天对有关美国问题的各种报道进行回应。我们不会这样做。我们会以原则性的方式回应我们的立场。当然，美国长期以来在台湾问题上保持战略模糊的立场。澳大利亚也持有同样的立场。
You've called your lunch with Xiinping
uh in an interview on the way back. You
called it very personal. Can you
describe what you mean by that?
That we had a personal discussion over
more than an hour.
What did you mean by personal though? I
know how long it lasted.
Well, that we raised a whole range of
issues because it was personal. I'm not
going to go into the detail. uh but it
wasn't so much discussing uh the affairs
of state that we did in our formal
bilateral meeting as president of China
and prime minister of Australia. It was
more talking about personal issues, our
history.
What did you learn about what did you
learn about his history and background?
I I learned a fair bit, but again
they're they're personal. He's I think
quite a private person and it's
important that you're able to have those
conversations. But in order to
understand where people are coming from,
uh, you've got to know their background
and you've got to know some of their
views about personal things and I feel
as though we got to know each other much
more.
You said that they were jokes. What were
the jokes about?
The jokes were about all sorts of
things. Uh, but once again, I'm going to
keep that uh, private. But he had showed
a a real sense of humor and it was a
very warm conversation that we had. He
of course has visited all six states and
territories in Australia. Now most
Australians have not done that.
He knows what he's talking about. Um
just in talking about where he comes
from and his background. I'm sure you
know his father's last role in the
Communist Party. His task was to oversee
the reunification of Taiwan. Did you
talk about that?
Uh no. It was uh
Taiwan wasn't mentioned.
No. We were talking not so much about
heavy policy issues.
But that's about his father. very
important to him.
Oh, it it is no doubt uh important to
him and he has expressed a clear view
about Taiwan and Australia has a clear
view as well. Uh we support the status
quo when it comes to the Taiwan Straits.
You described this exchange that you're
saying is a bit unusual. You spent time
together. You you've had these personal
exchanges. You described it as the
exchange as a moment of trust. What do
you think that trust is worth? Well,
what it's worth is not coming on the
program and talking about the personal
issues, for example. That that shows a
level of engagement there and building
personal relations. It's no different
from building personal relations around
this building or at a Labour Party
conference, engaging internationally.
You you let me just come in there
because there is a difference between
building relationships in this building
and building relationships with the
president of China. of of course but the
same principle applies which is be
upfront be clear about what your views
are be clear about what you can agree on
what you can't and that is the the
nature of our relationship I've said uh
that we will cooperate where we can
disagree where we must but we'll engage
in our national interest and that's very
much what we were doing
let me can I just come back to that
question of trust because I do think
it's an unusual word that you've used
and I do I want to know what you think
that that word means. Apart from having
a slightly advanced developed
relationship with him, would he, for
example, take a phone call from you in
the event of a crisis blowing up over
Taiwan to discourage him from invading
or blockading Taiwan?
Well, look, that that's a hypothetical
which I'm not going to go into. Uh, but
I have said before that anything that he
has said to me uh has been uh fulfilled.
uh there hasn't been any breaches of
personal uh commitments that he has
given to me. That doesn't mean he's
agreed with everything that I've put
forward. Far from it. But I'd rather
that than someone on an international
level saying, "Yep, we can do all that."
And then doing the opposite.
So you trust him that when he says
something, he's going to keep his word?
Uh I have no reason uh to point to any
breach uh that has occurred up to this
point.
That's that's about the past. What about
the future?
Well, all all I can do is talk about the
past uh because uh I can just talk about
facts rather than uh going forward. Uh
we don't know what it will bring. We
know there are significant differences.
China and Australia have different
political systems. We have different
values. We have our alliance with the
United States which is very important.
We're a democratic nation and tomorrow
will be the expression of that
democracy.
Just before we get to tomorrow, I want
to talk about how the Americans will
have been watching what happened. Um,
have you got your ambassador Kevin Rudd
explaining to the White House why you
spent so much time with President Xi
Jinping when you haven't met Donald
Trump? Has he been doing that?
No, I'm sure that Kevin Rudd has been
engaging with the United States in the
normal way. But did he need to explain
that?
I wouldn't have thought so. I would have
thought that Australia engaging with our
major trading partner is something
that's very sensible. It's about
Australian jobs.
But in the particular way that you
describe with trust, with this long
meeting, with exchanges, with personal
exchanges,
well, we engage and I engage
constructively as I have with the United
States over a long period of time. I
visited the United States five times
since I've been prime minister. I
visited China twice. China is our major
trading partner. One in four of
Australia's jobs depends upon trade and
China is uh larger the export our export
trade with China is worth more than the
next uh four countries combined.
What fresh efforts are you making now to
meet President Trump?
Well, we're engaging. I'm available uh
for a meeting. Uh we of course will have
a range of international forums as well
uh between now and the end of the year.
APEC, the G20, the Quad Leaders meeting
as well as the UN UN uh meeting uh being
held in September.
Are you hearing any concerns from the
White House or the Pentagon that
President Xi is using using your visit
as a way to sew discord amongst the
allies?
No.
Nothing. No,
there's been no questions about the
nature of the trip.
No, not to me.
Communicated to Kevin Rod, the
ambassador.
Not to me.
What will you say if if this meeting
with Donald Trump transpires, what will
you say to him him if he presses the
requests that we understand were made by
Under Secretary of Defense Elbridge
Colby asking Austral, let me just explain to
people what this is. So these report
a report of a series of meetings that
hasn't been denied. A a report that
hasn't been denied of a series of
meetings between defense officials in
the US and in Japan and in Australia
wanting to know much more clearly what
Australia's role would be if the US and
China went to war over Taiwan. What will
you say if you're pressed on that
question?
I'll say what any Australian prime
minister has ever said uh for a long
period of time on a bipartisan basis. Uh
we're a sovereign nation. uh we make
decisions uh depending upon the
circumstances of the day and it's up to
the government of the day will make
those decisions
but given the nature of August and the
fact that we're going to be technically
we're supposed to be receiving Virginia
class submarines do you understand do
you think that it's a fair question by
Elbridge Colby to Australia to be
clearer about what it would do in the
event of a conflict between the
made that suggestion to me
but he's made it to your officials
well has he there's been reports there's
been reports And there's a range of
reports. And one of the things that
we're not going to do is to jump at the
different reports about issues in the
United States on a daily basis. We're
not going to do that. What we do is
respond in a principle way as to what
our position is. And of course, the
United States has had a long-term
position about uh strategic ambiguity
when it comes to Taiwan. And uh that's a
position which Australia has held uh as
well.
