张维为 中国的政治体制与西方不同

中国的政治体制与你所知不同 | 与张维为教授一起理解中国

李菁菁 李菁菁 2024年11月2日

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMyXK_d2B-4

在本期节目中，我与复旦大学中国研究院院长张维为教授进行了对话，探讨了中国的政治体制、其成功之道以及西方对中国的错误认识。

我认为西方社会、西方主流媒体甚至许多学者都犯了一种错误，因为他们不知何故相信这种我认为非常肤浅的范式，它被称为民主或专制，如果不是西方民主，那就是专制。美国的主要问题在于……嗯，我想……在中国，我该怎么说呢？字面意思是混乱的思维。你知道他们不知道如何与中国打交道，如何应对中国，他们没有真正的战略。如果我们看看他们的计划，我们就知道从第一天起就不会奏效。贸易战一旦发动，就会失败。从对华技术战的第一天起，它就会彻底失败。我说它会彻底失败，因为他们没有整体战略，这意味着他们真的不了解中国。美国的一些人更愿意进行一种新的冷战，冷战是基于这种愚蠢的相互保证毁灭的概念，我很久以前就提出了这个概念，我说针对中国。美国，我们应该拥抱共同繁荣，地图比疯狂好得多。

李菁菁

我和独一无二的约翰·韦·韦教授一起，我相信你们中的很多人已经认识他了，他是国际关系学教授，也是福达大学中国研究院院长。约翰·韦·韦教授是您著作的忠实粉丝，我认为很多学者或对中国感兴趣的其他国家人士对中国的制度、文化有很多疑问。没问题，来吧，我想我们会尽力帮助他们理解一点，例如，因为最近中国的崛起和中国在很多方面的成功让很多人，尤其是西方国家的人们开始思考，为什么所谓的非常完美的西方民主制度面临越来越多的内部斗争，而中国的制度被贴上如此多的标签，被妖魔化，实际上可以

完成任务，在过去几十年里取得了如此大的进步。与西方相比，中国的制度有哪些优势？

张薇薇

在西方社会，或者西方主流媒体，甚至许多学者，呃，都犯了某种错误，因为他们不知何故相信这种我认为非常肤浅的范式。它被称为民主或专制，如果不是西方的民主，那就是专制。我很久以前就说过，我曾周游世界100多个国家。我说，如果社会，全球，无论什么政治，都必须分为两类，那就是善治或恶治。善治可以体现在西方政治制度中。

中国的政治制度就是一个很好的例子。西方的恶治也一样。我给你100个例子，西方政治制度的失败也一样。

非西方制度也可能失败。所以我认为，我们专注于善治，那么我们能够完成的事情就是善治非常重要的一部分。例如，看看欧洲。如果我没记错的话，欧洲将率先倡导绿色协议。

能源转型。可再生能源多少年过去了？结果如何？中国取得了我们所取得的成就。我们知道，中国生产了全球60%到70%的可再生能源设备，而电动汽车是中国唯一实现这些目标的主要国家。欧洲的提案呢？这项协议已经不多见了。德国也一样，在2013年建造了令人印象深刻的工厂，被称为“工业4.0”。中国对这项提案和计划印象深刻。中国制定了自己的计划，称为“中国制造2025”，借鉴了德国计划的许多元素。当然，它比德国计划要大得多。还有10年。世界各国的计划已经成型，但中国的计划已经成功完成。我称之为“中国模式”。例如，为了绿色协议，为了能源转型，我们制定了多个五年计划，分别是电动汽车五年计划、四个五年计划，每个五年计划20年。四个五年计划

每个五年计划我们都会审查成功的程度，哪些地方不成功的部分。 然后我们不仅每五年进行调整，而且每年都会进行调整。

春季我们有两会和人民代表大会以及人民协商会议。年底，通常是11月底12月初，我们会召开党中央经济工作会议。

会议重点审查年度计划的执行情况，以及我们应该在哪些方面继续推进，在哪些方面需要改进，在哪些方面需要纠正错误。然而，它已经非常成熟，制度化。中国式民主，也就是我们所说的协商民主，每个五年计划都涉及中国社会各阶层数百、数千次的协商，国家结构也如此。印度的生产计划是可行的，可以落实到我们每一个人身上。所以，每当我们制定计划时，我们都会认真执行，每年的两会上，中国总理都会回应来自会场的请求。我们去年制定了一个计划，说我们制定了25项承诺、目标，哪些目标我们已经实现了，哪些目标100%实现了，哪些目标70%实现了，哪些目标80%实现了，这被称为问责制、响应式政府，所以它真的比西方政治体制更民主。西方政治体制更注重公开声明、竞选宣言。我认为它应该足够谦虚，可以学习中国模式。我们有很多好的经验可以与他们分享。所以，你刚才提到的，我想也得到了我所交谈过的来自不同大陆的人们的共鸣。例如，上个月我们举行了“假新闻”会议，许多非洲专家也告诉我同样的事情。我问他们为什么。你会关注“假新闻”，你知道，当中国领导人说他们想做某事时，他们是认真的。巴基斯坦在过去几十年里一直如此坚定，他们知道会发生什么。他们知道中国致力于……就像你提到的电动汽车，许多领导人，也许一些西方领先的公司，20年前都在嘲笑中国的模式。中国公司，比如中国公司，在电动汽车领域毫无进展。但看看现在，那些曾经被嘲笑的模式，现在已经是世界上最领先的竞争对手。所以，当中国说了什么，它非常一致。即使领导人改变了政策，他们也致力于这样做。扶贫也是如此。是的，所以我认为这让很多中国以外的人开始怀疑，一个政府在过去100年里怎么可能如此始终如一。你知道，我提出“文明国家”的概念，是因为中国在某种程度上是独一无二的。中国于公元前221年首次统一。从那时起，中国在大多数时间里都是一个统一的国家，由一个统一的统治实体统治，或者用今天的话来说，就是我们熟悉的一党制。但在这个所谓的统一统治实体背后，过去和现在都是一种我称之为“贤能政治”的结构。中国发明了公务员考试制度，也就是K系统，现在它已经适应了今天，它非常现代化，现在被称为“选拔+选举”。如果你看看中国最高领导层的履历，你会发现，他们基本上是中国省份第一把手的两倍，实际上，他们在担任现职之前已经统治了超过1亿人。所以，我毫不怀疑，中国的最高领导人是当今世界上最有能力、最有经验的人之一。然后，你会看到一个UniFi统治实体，它的标志是下巴上的共产党，我称之为整体利益党，这又是中国悠久历史的传统，但它已经现代化了。这就是为什么如果我们是一个整体利益党，而西方的政治体系是由部分利益构成的。或者说党派利益党，所以你不能指望英国工党制定计划，保守党会继续执行。他们不会废除计划并进行修改。但中国是一个政党，它正在发挥作用，但它不是西方式的政治党派利益党，而是一个整体利益党。党内有党内民主，我们会辩论，讨论很多问题。我跟很多美国通才说过，你知道，从文化大革命到改革开放的转变，其规模远远大于

你们共和党或民主党追求的许多变革。

嗯，好的。所以这些变化发生在中国党内，转型已经完成，这就是为什么我们可以继续执行这个计划，我们可以规划未来5年、10年以及下一代。这是中国模式和中国体制的巨大优势。例如，扶贫是一项如此巨大的工程，不可能在4年、5年或像一位领导人那样，在短短4年、5年或更长时间内完成。它已经由一代又一代的人们、专家们继续推进，致力于解决这个问题。这就是为什么，这也提出了对于美国、英国、西方和南加州的民主制度来说，这是一个非常严重的问号，因为这个制度是关于选举的，它或多或少是由选民驱动的，如果是51%的得票率，赢者通吃，首先，对于拥有14亿人口的中国来说，如果是赢者通吃，5%的人会赢，国家就会分裂，中国人不会接受这一点，你知道，规模很重要，其次，你必须对后代负责，对那些还没有出生的人负责，下一代，所以这些是不反映西方的政治体制，所以正如我告诉亚马教授的那样，这个体制必须得到修正，必须彻底改革，否则你就无法竞争，无法应对来自21世纪的挑战。是的，我认为，在过去的五到十年里，我们看到西方主流媒体上反华宣传日益猖獗，与此同时，我们也看到了对中国企业的制裁，例如将中国顶尖的人工智能公司列入黑名单，或者对中国的电动汽车征收关税，以及各种试图打击中国崛起的举措。我想知道，从你的角度来看，中国做了什么，触动了一些政府最敏感的神经。美国的主要问题是，嗯，我想，我该怎么说呢？中国的状态是，字面意思是，混乱的思维，你知道他们不知道，如何相互应对，如何应对，他们没有一个真正的战略。你知道，如果我们看一下无论他们的计划如何，我们都知道，从联合国强加的贸易战第一天起，它就行不通了。这将是失败，100%的失败。从他们对中国发动的科技战来看，我说过，这将彻底失败，因为。当他们没有整体的战略时，这意味着他们真的。了解中国，因为它是成功的。中国模式的成功基于马云主席和主席倡导的哲学，即实事求是。当我们看美国，当我们看欧盟时，我们看它的优势、劣势、优点和弱点，所以我们根据它们各自的优点来处理。我们确实有这种欧美意识形态。你知道我们是最好的制度，你必须像我们一样皈依。这非常愚蠢。哦，我们的文明比现在还要长5000年，人们必须有一定的谦虚。在与大文明打交道时，你知道我们看到一些非常幼稚的预测，你知道你看到一个又一个关于中国的预测的失败。你知道，从……的崩溃开始。中国每三五年就会崩溃一次，中国非常愚蠢，目光短浅。众所周知，短期主义是西方政治体系的典型特征，而长期主义在战略层面上更是如此，长期主义总是胜出。此外，不久前我们在法国，与法国智库讨论过。你提到了Teron电动汽车，我说过要小心，我只是想告诉你，一旦你了解了印度，你就会后悔为什么。因为今天的电动汽车是另一种技术，这种竞争或多或少就像我们过去记得的，电影是富士和柯达之间的竞争，最终它们都被数字技术取代了。所以，电动汽车是一种数字技术，它是智能AI，无论应用到什么地方，它都已经与传统汽车截然不同。所以，如果你拒绝这种新型技术，这种技术是一维的，甚至是二维的，那么你就会失去这个机会。中国共产党在其官方文件中提到，一项原则是，我们代表最先进的生产力，这意味着无论哪里出现新技术，我们都应该首先拥抱它，然后努力应对它们对我们应用这项技术的方式提出的任何挑战，开发这项技术。所以，如果你看看德国工业4.0失败的原因，一个主要原因是他们听信了美国人，停止了与华为和阿里云的合作，这些是世界上最好的电信公司。云计算业务，如果你放弃最好的技术，你也会失去同样的技术。我可以举很多其他例子。我的最后一个问题是，你对这场地缘政治冲突可能的结果有何看法？谁会赢，谁会输？美国的主要问题是，如果他们能改变思维方式，那么拥有它将会很容易。这对中美两国都大有裨益，对全世界也一样。有些人更倾向于拥有一种新的冷战。战争，冷战，就是建立在这种愚蠢的“相互保证毁灭”概念之上。我很久以前就提出了这个想法，我说，对于中国和美国，我们应该拥抱“相互保证繁荣”的地图。这比“相互保证毁灭”好得多。德国哲学家伊曼纽尔·K曾说过，他是一位富有远见卓识的人物。他说，最终，人们都应该拥抱和平，但只有两种方法：一种是通过战争、战争、毁灭和死亡，最终实现和平；另一种是通过国际法等智慧。我们，应该选择第二种方法，这样，我们就能……印度和美国就会意识到，当他们放弃“相互保证毁灭”的思维模式时，是的，那么我们都将从地缘政治紧张局势中获益。非常感谢约翰教授。

China's political system is different from what you know | Understanding China w/ Prof. Zhang Weiwei

Li Jingjing 李菁菁   2024年11月2日

In this episode, I spoke to Professor Zhang Weiwei, Dean of the China Institute at Fudan University, to discuss China's political system, why it can get things done, how the West got wrong on China.

I think the Western uh Society or Western mainstream Media or even many academics uh made a kind of mistake because they somehow believe in this I think very superficial Paradigm it's called the Democracy or autocracy if not Western Star de democracy then it's autocracy the main problem with United States it is in the status of um I think uh how should I put it in China with Shing literal translation is chaotic mind you know they don't know how to deal with China how to cope with China that they don't have a real strategy you know if we look at their plans whatever we know it will not work from day one when trade War imposed by it will be failure 100% failure from day one of tech war against China I said it will fail completely because when they have don't have the overall strategy and which means they are really understanding China as it is some in the

America in in United States prefer to have a kind of new Cold War the cold war is based on this stupid concept of mutually assured destruction mad I put forward a long time ago I said for China United States we should embrace mutually assured Prosperity map map is much better than mad

Li Jingjing

so I'm joined by the one and only professor John way way I'm sure many of

you already know him he's the professor of international relations the dean of

China Institute at Fooda University Professor JN big fan of your work and I

think a lot of Scholars or people who are interested in China in other

countries they have so many questions about China's system about China's

culture no problem come on I think we will try to help them to understand a

little bit for example because the recent China's rise and China's success

in many aspects a lot of people in particularly in Western countries start

to wonder why the so-called very um perfect Western democracy is facing more

and more internal struggles but China

the system has been put on so many

labels and being demonized can actually

get things done and made so much

progress in the past few decades what's

the advantages of China's system

compared to Western

Zhang Weiwei

in the western Society or Western mainstream Media or

even many academics uh made a kind of

mistake because they somehow believe in

this I think very superficial Paradigm

it's called the Democracy or autocracy

if not Western Star de democracy then

it's autocracy I said a long time ago I

said I traveled around the world to over

100 countries I said if the society the

glob Global whatever politic has to be

divided into two categories it must be

good governance or bad governance and

good governance can pick for of Western

political system can take form of other

political system Chinese one is a good

example same with bad governance Western

system I give you 100 examples failure

is of Western political system same

non-western system can be a failure so I

think we focus on good governance then

what we can get things done is part of

this good governance very important if

you look at the Europe for instance

Europe will the first if I'm not wrong

the earliest to Advocate a green deal

energy transition to Renewables how many

years have passed what's the result but

China has achieved that we have made

this transition we know produce 60 70%

of world's renewable energy equipment

and EV vehicles done CH the only major

country that achieved these objectives

what about European proposal idea this

de agreement no longer much there and

same with Germany which produced this

very impressive plants called the

industry 4. zero in the year 2013 and

China was deeply impressed by that

proposal and that plan and China

produced its own plan called the made in

China 2025 and Drew a lot of elements

from the German plan of course it's much

bigger than the German plan 10 years

have left have passed World German plan

it's already in tatus but Chinese plan

already successful completed more or

less behind this what I call the Chinese

model for inst for the green deal for

the energy transition we made a number

of 5year plans for Ev Vehicles EV cars

four 5e plans 20 years every four five

year plan every 5e plan we will examine

to what extent is successful where it is

successful where it's not successful

then we make readjustments not only for

every five years but for every year in

the spring we have two sessions people's

congress people's consultative

conference and then at the end of the

year usually late November early

December we have a economic Conference

of the Party Central Committee which

focus on examination of the annual plan

and how is it been performed how far we

should continue how far we should

improve how far we should correct our

mistakes whatever so already very

sophisticated very institutionalized

Chinese style democracy what we call the

consultative democracy and for each

fiveyear plan it involves hundreds

thousands of consultation at all level

of Chinese society and state structure

Indian producer plan that is workable

that is can be implemented very down to

us so whenever we have a plan we mean it

it has to be implemented and each year

in the two sessions Chinese Premier will

be responsive to the request from the

floor we made a plan last year say we

made the 25 commitments targets

objectives which one we have fulfilled

which one 100% which one 70% which one

80% one by one that's called accountable

responsive government so it's really

more democratic than the Western

political system which is more about uh

you know make public statement the

campaign statement and I think it should

be modest enough to learn from Chinese

model we have so much so much what have

good experience to share with them so

what you me just mentioned I think also

echoed by people from different

continents that I've talked to for

example in last month we had the fak

meeting and many African experts told me

the same thing was like I ask them why

you pay attention to fak like you know

when China's leaders says they want to

do something they mean it they mean it

and Pak has been so consistent for the

past few decades and they know what to

expect they know China is committed to

this like you mention the electric

vehicles many leaders maybe the some

leading Western companies 20 years ago

they were laughing at China's models

China's companies like the Chinese

companies going nowhere at the EVS but

look at now the models that used to

laugh at now has been the most leading

competitors in the world so when China

says something it's very consistent the

leaders even though change but the

policies don't change the committed to

do that so so same thing with the

poverty alleviation yeah so I think um

it caused a lot of people outside China

start to wonder how is that possible for

one government to be so consistent in

the past like 100 years and uh you know

I Advance this concept of civilizational

State because China is in a way unique

because China was first unified in 221

BC and uh since then in most time China

was a unified country and governed by a

unified ruling entity or in today's

words one party system we had that we're

familiar with that but behind this

so-called unified ruling entity was and

today is a structure I call the

meritocracy China invented examination

system for public servants K system and

now it has been adapted to today is it's

very modern now it's called the I call

this selection plus election selection

first if you look at the profiles of the

Chinese top leadership you know

basically at least twice as number one

of Chinese Province literally they have

governed over 100 million people before

they come to their current positions so

I have no doubt whatsoever the Chinese

top astion leaders is among the most

competent most experienced in the world

today and then you have a a UniFi ruling

entity symbol by chin Communist party I

called holistic interest party which is

again a tradition for China's long

history but it's modernized that's why

if we are a holistic interest party the

Western political system is made up of

partial interest or partisan interest

parties so you cannot expect UK's labor

party make a plan and conserv party will

continue it no they will scrap it and

change it but China is one party

this is working but it's not western

style political partisan interest party

it's a holistic interest party and

within party you have in party democracy

we debate we discuss many issues I told

the many American generalist I said you

know this transition from cultural

revolution to reform and opening up the

scale of change is much greater than

many of your whatever changes pursued by

uh okay by the Republican Or democrats

so this changes have happened taken

place within China within the party and

transition made so this why we can

continue with this plan and

so we can plan for next 5 years next 10

years and Next Generation that's huge

advantage of Chinese model and Chinese

system yeah for example poverty

alleviation is something so huge that

cannot be done just within four years

five years or like one uh leader it has

been carried on by generations of

generations of people experts dedicated

to Sol this issue and that's why and

this has also posed a really very

serious question mark say for the

American British Western So-Cal

democracy because that system is say

about election it's more or less driven

by the voters and if it's 51%

and Winner Takes all in the first place

in the case of China with a population

of 1.4 billion if it's Winner Takes all

5 wi% will win the country will break up

Chinese will not accept that you know

size matter the second thing you have to

be responsible for Generation to come

for those who have not yet been born

Next Generation so these are not

reflecting Western political system so

that system as I told the professor f

Yama has to be fixed has to be reformed

thoroughly substantially otherwise you

cannot compete you cannot cope with the

Challenge from the 21st century yeah I

think in recent five to 10 years we saw

this uh Rising anti-china propaganda on

Western mainstream media and together

with the anti-china propaganda we also

saw sanctions on China's Enterprises

blacklisting China's top for example AI

company or uh adding tariffs on China's

EVS all kinds of efforts trying to crack

down China's rise I'm wondering from

your point of view what China has done

that touches the most sensitive nerves

of some governments uh the main problem

with United States it is in the status

of um I think how should I put it in

China with is sh literal translation is

chaotic mind you know they don't know

how to deal with each other how to cope

with each other that they don't have a

real strategy you know if we look at

their plans whatever we know it will not

work from day one when trade War imposed

by un it will be failure 100% failure

from they of tech war against China I

said it will fail completely because

when they have don't have the overall

strategy and which means they are really

understanding China as it is the success

of Chinese model is based on the

philosophy which was advocate by both

chairman Ma and chairman being called

seeking truths from Facts when we look

at United States when we look at unit

European Union we look at as it is it's

strength it's weakness it's good points

weak points so we deal with that uh on

their own merits we do have this

European American ideological uh friendy

you know we are the best system you must

be converted like us this is very stupid

we oh civilization 5,000 years longer

people have to have a certain modesty

dealing with big civilization you know

we look at some of like very childish

you know you look at the fail of the

prediction about China one after another

you know from the collapse of China

every three or five years another

collapse of China another collapse of

China very stupid very shortsighted

short termism is known to all is a

typical feature of Western political

system all much more long long

termism in strategic terms long-termism

always win out furthermore we were in

France not long ago and we were

discussing with the French Think Tank

you mention this teron EV vehicles I

said look out you know I just tell you

once you know Indian you will regret why

because today's EV Vehicles is another

type of tech technology this competition

is the most like more or less like you

know in the past we all remember about

the film is the competition between Fuji

or Koda in the end they are both

replaced by digital technology so this

EV vehicle is a digital technology it's

intelligent AI whatever applied it's

already very different from traditional

cars so if you refuse

new type of Technologies which is

onedimensional high if not two then you

will lose this opportunity if you look

at Chinese Communist party in its

official document it says one principle

is we represent the most advanced

productivity or most advanced productive

Force which means whereever there new

technology first R technology we should

embrace it then try to deal with

whatever challenges they impose on the

way that we apply this technology

develop this technology so if you look

at why Germany industrial 4.0 failed one

major thing is they listen to the

Americans they stop their cooperate with

Huawei with Ali Cloud these are the best

in the world in the telecommunication in

Cloud business if you cut yourself with

the best Technologies you lose the same

with uh other I could give many other

examples my last question is what's your

vision for the possible outcomes of this

geopolitical conflict who will win who

will lose the main problem with United

States if they can change their mindset

you know it will be easy to uh have it

will be great for both China United

States for the whole world some in the

America in in United States prefer to

have a kind of new Cold War the cold war

is based on this stupid concept of

mutually assured destruction

mad I put forward a long time ago I said

for China United States we should

embrace mutually assured Prosperity map

map is much better than mad and German

philosopher Emmanuel K had a statement

very with Visionary with visions he said

in the end people should all

Embrace peace but there are only two

approaches one through War wars

destruction deaths and then in the end

you reach peace the other is through

wisdom through international law Etc we

should choose the second

approach then we can India and United States will realize

that when they drop the mindset of

mutually assured destruction into M yeah

then we all win yeah from this

geopolitical tensions right thank you so

much professor John thank you so much